Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?

It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.

But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?

On Jun 2, 11:14*am, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. *But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. *That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. *A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? *Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?

I'm pretty sure they can. I started in my early 20's, I'm 54 now and
have a few thousand or more hours as a PPSEL/G/SL as well as several
hundred hours in hang gliders. All of these hours have culminated in
my ability to fly XC in a variety of conditions and locations, but
primarily in the mountains as that is my preferred venue.

Learning the basic skill set to safely operate a sailplane is do-able,
I think...............BUT..............the hundreds of hours of XC
experience, reading the conditions, watching and understanding the WX
(as much as that is possible) has been something I've gained over many
years. Now I can safely (I hope) and confidently push out into the
peaks and enjoy myself.

There are several older students in my club............I get the
feeling they are eager to visit the peaks also. I just wonder how much
of that is going to be possible, sure they have the time to spend
learning, but do they have the "time" to gain the knowledge needed to
push out.

Brad

I soloed when I was 57, I'm now 63. I've got 400 hours XC (out of 640 total hours), a Diamond Badge, and I've flown in 5 contests. So unless I'm exceptional (and my friends assure me that I'm not), of course "old people" can learn to fly gliders!

Brad does raise a good point about reading the sky and learning the weather.. That's something you definitely learn through experience. I certainly can't read the sky like national champions, but I know enough to be able to beat some of them on occasion. Where they excel is in their consistency, which reflects their greater depth of experience.

-John


On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?

son_of_flubber wrote:

> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the
> soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special
> challenges to developing an older student and how well are those
> challenges addressed?

Sure they can. Of course young people learn faster but in the end it matters
to keep the enthusiasm. My newest student (15 years old) soloed with 32
winch launches, where we expect a rate of 40 to 50 as an average. My
personal experience is that the number of launches to solo goes up with the
age, so a 50 year old guy can expect 80..100 launches.

Special challenges... not really. More patience is needed when the student
needs more time. We try to address all students by their personal progress,
independant of age.

This is my experience as instructor in a small german glider club
Chris

On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:11:53 PM UTC-7, Chris wrote:
> son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the
> > soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special
> > challenges to developing an older student and how well are those
> > challenges addressed?
>
> Sure they can. Of course young people learn faster but in the end it matters
> to keep the enthusiasm. My newest student (15 years old) soloed with 32
> winch launches, where we expect a rate of 40 to 50 as an average. My
> personal experience is that the number of launches to solo goes up with the
> age, so a 50 year old guy can expect 80..100 launches.
>
> Special challenges... not really. More patience is needed when the student
> needs more time. We try to address all students by their personal progress,
> independant of age.
>
> This is my experience as instructor in a small german glider club
> Chris

Most anybody can learn to 'fly' a glider, the question of serious cross country for those who solo'd after, say 65'ish would be cause for concern in my mind. I know a fellow who took up the sport, late in life, and ended up having a serious accident that didn't have to happen. He tried to land on the side of a mountain, when he had plenty of clearance to just fly away from the higher ground and maybe find something or at least find a better spot to put it down. I believe those who fly after 65, need a good experience pool to draw from, say 10 years of cross-country before reaching 65. I'm pushing 78, but most of my decisions come easy because I went into my senior years with a wealth of flying to compare situations with.
The recent fatality reminded me of doing the same thing and remembering how foolish it was. The day was just about to pop, but it hadn't quite happened yet, I tried to truck-stop, the hangar and then thought the runway might pop off a thermal. I ended up at 500 feet over the middle of the runway, going in the wrong direction! I said (out loud) OK JJ, knock this stupid crap off, had to do aa abbreviated tear-drop pattern to get where I needed to be to land. Put another one in my memory bank to not repeat!
Cheers,
JJ

On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?

Yes they can.
Variations in aptitude, motivation, and maturity are mor important than age..
That said, we are all going down a slippery slope of aging and its ain't easy to crawl back up.
They may also be likely to last longer as particpants that the younger generation that commonly has a short attention span.
FWIW
UH

On Jun 2, 4:04*pm, wrote:
> On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. *But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> > It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. *That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. *A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> > But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? *Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
>
> Yes they can.
> Variations in aptitude, motivation, and maturity are mor important than age.
> That said, we are all going down a slippery slope of aging and its ain't easy to crawl back up.
> They may also be likely to last longer as particpants that the younger generation that commonly has a short attention span.
> FWIW
> UH

As one of the "old students" in Brad's club, I can tell you that
taking up flying in the autumn of my life has been a bitch. I earned a
PPSEL and a couple hundred hours thirty years ago and then dropped
flying until I was sixty-eight, two years ago. I'm reasonably healthy
both physically and mentally (no comments McTow!). However, it's
become obvious that the "brazen" self-confidence that I once
possessed, assuming it was there in the first place, has declined
precipitously. It's also obvious that my ability learn and
consistently perform basic techniques has taken much longer than I
ever imagined. Earning the glider rating has been a struggle but I
finally did it. Now, with ticket in hand, I watch Brad and the other
accomplished pilots in our club head off to the Cascades for some
amazing flights and I wonder if I will ever have the nerve, not to
mention the skills, to follow. I'm in it now and will probably
continue but were I to know two years ago what I was subjecting myself
to, I might well have taken up a pastime less challenging.

Fred

On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?

WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the same odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is not a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying gliders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills seems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your question.. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but frankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions without having any wealth of experience behind them.

I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to transition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in contests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.

Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age.

-Jim

JJ Sinclair wrote:

> Most anybody can learn to 'fly' a glider, the question of serious cross
> country for those who solo'd after, say 65'ish would be cause for concern
> in my mind.

All what you said is true. But remember not all glider pilots do cross
country. When they are happy just to fly near the airfield, this is
absolutly fine. We have some guys in our club who love to stay in the local
thermal for one or two hours. I would never encourage them to to cross
country. But should I stop them flying?

Jim > wrote:

>On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
>>
>> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>>
>> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
>
>WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the same odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is not a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying gliders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills seems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your question. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but frankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions without having any wealth of experience behind them.
>
>I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to transition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in contests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.
>
>Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age.
>
>-Jim

Our (now retired) CFI always maintained that it was the late-learners
who had the "stupid" accidents. Although "aptitude, motivation, and
maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age, put them in
a situation they never encountered before and the power of analytical
thought is much too low.

I am 73, soloed at 17, and have >4000 hours, but am acutely aware of a
deterioration over the last 10 years.

On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
In looking at the title to this tread the more appropriate question may be "can you learn good grammar?".

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:51:33 PM UTC-4, wrote:

> In looking at the title to this tread the more appropriate question may be "can you learn good grammar?".<

Don't be such a jerk. Have you never made a typo?

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Gilbert Smith wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
> >>
> >> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
> >>
> >> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
> >
> >WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the same odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is not a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying gliders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills seems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your question. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but frankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions without having any wealth of experience behind them.
> >
> >I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to transition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in contests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.
> >
> >Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age.
> >
> >-Jim
>
> Our (now retired) CFI always maintained that it was the late-learners
> who had the "stupid" accidents. Although "aptitude, motivation, and
> maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age, put them in
> a situation they never encountered before and the power of analytical
> thought is much too low.
>
> I am 73, soloed at 17, and have >4000 hours, but am acutely aware of a
> deterioration over the last 10 years.

">put them in a situation they never encountered before and the >power of analytical thought is much too low."...BULL****!

Well, OK 73 may be too old.

-Jim

Many years ago, as a new professional instructor, I asked my wise, older
boss, "How do I answer the question, 'How long will it take me to go
solo?'" He replied, "Just tell them 'one flight for every year of your
age'" (we were an all aerotow operation). I kept count for several years,
it was pretty close in about 90% of cases.

At 00:40 04 June 2012, Jim wrote:
>On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Gilbert Smith wrote:
>> Jim wrote:
>>=20
>> >On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> >> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them
>soloe=
>d at 55?
>> >>=20
>> >> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student
>a=
>ged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport
>and=
> stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into
>t=
>he shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently
>s=
>ustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more
likely
>=
>to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is
>stru=
>ggling to get established in career, family, and community during a
>prolong=
>ed recession and uncertain economy.=20
>> >>=20
>> >> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does
>the=
> soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special
>chal=
>lenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges
>add=
>ressed?
>> >
>> >WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the
>sam=
>e odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is
>not=
> a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying
>g=
>liders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills
>s=
>eems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your
>quest=
>ion. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but
>f=
>rankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions
>without=
> having any wealth of experience behind them.
>> >
>> >I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to
>tr=
>ansition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in
>co=
>ntests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.=20
>> >
>> >Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity"
to
>=
>fly gliders is certainly independent of age.
>> >
>> >-Jim =20
>>=20
>> Our (now retired) CFI always maintained that it was the late-learners
>> who had the "stupid" accidents. Although "aptitude, motivation, and
>> maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age, put them in
>> a situation they never encountered before and the power of analytical
>> thought is much too low.
>>=20
>> I am 73, soloed at 17, and have >4000 hours, but am acutely aware of a
>> deterioration over the last 10 years.
>
>">put them in a situation they never encountered before and the >power of
>a=
>nalytical thought is much too low."...BULL****!
>
>Well, OK 73 may be too old.
>
>-Jim
>

Well we just had one member terminate up his solo flying at 82 - after
some introspection relating to a minor accident where he failed to
handle all the very complicated stuff going on.

So I know of at least one going Solo for the first time at 83 - and some
- like this pilot deciding that a complex, high performance self
launcher with all the bells and whistles is not a good idea at 80+.

Depends on the person, and the complexity I suppose.

Fun is what you make it. - it does not have to be in a competition
single seater.

On 2012/06/04 2:40 AM, Jim wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Gilbert Smith wrote:
>> Jim wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>>> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
<SNIP>

er encountered before and the>power of analytical thought is much too
low."...BULL****!
>
> Well, OK 73 may be too old.
>
> -Jim

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On Sunday, June 3, 2012 6:40:39 PM UTC-6, Jim wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Gilbert Smith wrote:
> > Jim wrote:
> >
> > >On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > >> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. But how many of them soloed at 55?
> > >>
> > >> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
> > >>
> > >> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
> > >
> > >WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the same odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is not a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying gliders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills seems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your question. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but frankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions without having any wealth of experience behind them.
> > >
> > >I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to transition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in contests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.
> > >
> > >Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age.
> > >
> > >-Jim
> >
> > Our (now retired) CFI always maintained that it was the late-learners
> > who had the "stupid" accidents. Although "aptitude, motivation, and
> > maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age, put them in
> > a situation they never encountered before and the power of analytical
> > thought is much too low.
> >
> > I am 73, soloed at 17, and have >4000 hours, but am acutely aware of a
> > deterioration over the last 10 years.
>
> ">put them in a situation they never encountered before and the >power of analytical thought is much too low."...BULL****!
>
> Well, OK 73 may be too old.
>
> -Jim

Somewhere on Facebook recently I believe someone took their check ride at 72.

On Jun 3, 5:40*pm, Jim > wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:05:58 PM UTC-4, Gilbert Smith wrote:
> > Jim wrote:
>
> > >On Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:14:05 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > >> Sure, a lot "senior citizens" fly gliders. *But how many of them soloed at 55?
>
> > >> It's apparently much easier to learn to fly at 16, but a new student aged 55 is more likely to have the time and funds to commit to the sport and stay with it. *That late middle aged guy/gal is more likely to step into the shoes of the winnowed ranks of the even older guys/gals that presently sustain the sport. *A 50-something who is prepared to retire is more likely to step up to fill the ranks than an underemployed 20-something who is struggling to get established in career, family, and community during a prolonged recession and uncertain economy.
>
> > >> But my question is this, can an "old person" learn to fly and does the soaring community have the patience to teach them? *Are there special challenges to developing an older student and how well are those challenges addressed?
>
> > >WTF? Are you serious? Of course they can! Or, at least they have the same odds for success as the general population(regardless of age). Age is not a factor for the ability to master the challenges of piloting and flying gliders cross country. I agree that how fast one picks up the basic skills seems to be affected by age in some but that doesn't even justify your question. I have seen very young pilots acquire the required skills to fly but frankly I cringe at their blind courage to make some risky decisions without having any wealth of experience behind them.
>
> > >I learned to fly gliders in my 50's with only about 100 hrs in SLE to transition from. I now have over 1000 hours in gliders, have flown them in contests, have several 1000k OARs and had flights from dawn to dusk.
>
> > >Hank said it concisely that the "aptitude, motivation, and maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age.
>
> > >-Jim
>
> > Our (now retired) CFI always maintained that it was the late-learners
> > who had the "stupid" accidents. Although *"aptitude, motivation, and
> > maturity" to fly gliders is certainly independent of age, put them in
> > a situation they never encountered before and the power of analytical
> > thought is much too low.
>
> > I am 73, soloed at 17, and have >4000 hours, but am acutely aware of a
> > deterioration over the last 10 years.
>
> ">put them in a situation they never encountered before and the >power of analytical thought is much too low."...BULL****!
>
> Well, OK 73 may be too old.
>
> -Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well... maybe not... It maybe up to a good PATIENT instructor to
properly avaluate one's ability and awareness regardless of age.
I've seen instructors over the years wanting to be good guys, signing
people off to fly solo or PIC when they had business none.
I would much rather an istructor never signs one off to solo than out
of pity let's the student kill him or her self.
I'm 65 years young, still very active and believe well skilled but; I
would like nothing more than when the time comes, for some friend to
pull me aside and ask me not be be a danger to myself and others and
not fly solo anymore. Althrough I sincerly hope this will come a long
long time from now.
PeterK